METROArietje Schaake is a former Dutch member of the European Parliament. She is currently director of international policy at the Stanford University Cyber Policy Center and international policy fellow at the Stanford University Cyber Policy Center. Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. His new book is titled The technological coup: how to save Silicon Valley democracy.
In terms of power and political influence, what are the main differences between Big Tech and previous incarnations of Big Business?
The difference is the role that these technology companies play in so many aspects of people’s lives: in the State, the economy, geopolitics. So while previous monopolists accumulated a lot of capital and significant positions, they were usually in one sector, such as oil or automobile production. These tech companies are like octopuses with tentacles going in so many different directions. They have a ton of data, location data, search, communications, critical infrastructure, and AI can now be built on top of all that assembled power, which makes these companies very different animals than what we’ve seen in the past.
Peter Kyle, UK technology secretaryrecently suggestedIt is said that governments must show a “sense of humility” with large technology companies and treat them more like nation states. What do you think about that?
I think it is a baffling misunderstanding of the role of a democratically elected and accountable leader. Yes, these companies have become incredibly powerful and as such I understand the comparison with the role of states, because more and more these companies are making decisions that used to be the exclusive domain of the state. But the response, particularly from a progressively leaning government, should be to strengthen the primacy of democratic governance and oversight, not to show humility. What is needed is self-confidence on the part of the democratic government to ensure that these companies, these services, are assuming their rightful role within a system based on the rule of law, and not overtaking it.
What do you think the impact of Donald Trump’s presidency will be?
The election of Donald Trump changes everything because he has brought specific technological interests closer than any political leader, especially in the United States, which is this powerful geopolitical and technological center. There is a lot of crypto money supporting Trump. There are many venture capitalists who support him and of course he has elevated Elon Musk and announced a deregulatory agenda. Every step his administration takes will depend on these factors, whether they be the personal interests of Elon Musk and his companies, or the personal preferences of the president and his supporters. On the other hand, Musk actually criticizes some dynamics around AI, namely existential risk. We will have to see how long the honeymoon between him and Trump lasts, and also how other large technology companies will respond. Because they are not going to like that Musk decides technology policy over his competitors. I’m thinking about tough times ahead.
Why have politicians been so lighthearted about the digital technological revolution?
The most powerful companies we see now were all rooted in this kind of progressive, libertarian vein of counterculture in California, that romantic narrative of a couple of guys in shorts in a basement or garage, coding and challenging the great powers that be: the media editors, hotel branches, taxi companies, financial services, all of which had a pretty bad reputation to begin with. And there was certainly room for disruption, but this kind of underdog mentality was incredibly powerful. Companies have done a really smart job of framing what they’re doing as decentralizing, like the Internet itself. Companies like Google and Facebook have consistently argued that any regulatory measures would harm the Internet. So it’s a combination of wanting to believe in the promise and not appreciating how very narrow corporate interests won at the expense of the public interest.
Do you see any major politicians willing to stand up to big tech interests?
Well, someone like (U.S. Sen.) Elizabeth Warren has the clearest view on excessive power and abuse of power by corporations, including the tech sector. She has been consistent in trying to address this. But, generally speaking, I fear that political leaders are not taking this as they should. In the European Commission, I don’t really see a vision. I have seen elections, even in my own country, where technology was not an issue at all. And we see those comments from the UK government, although one would assume that democratic barriers around excessively powerful corporations are a no-brainer.
Have you been held back by your technological ignorance?
Yes, I think they feel intimidated. But I also believe that the anti-agency attitude of governments is deliberate on the part of technology companies. It is important to understand that the way we are taught to think about technology is determined by the technology companies themselves. And so we get the whole narrative that governments are basically unqualified to deal with technology because they are too stupid, too old-fashioned, and too poor at delivering services. The message is that if they can’t even process taxes on time, what do you think they are going to do with AI? It is a caricature of the government, and the government should not accept that caricature.
Do you think the UK’s position vis-à-vis Big Tech has weakened as a result of its exit from the EU?
Yes and no. Australia and Canada have developed technology policies and are smaller than the UK population. I don’t know if that’s it. I think actually wanting to attract investment is a much more deliberate choice. So perhaps it is simply self-interest that transcends the Conservative and Labor governments, because I don’t see much change in technology policy, whereas I had anticipated change. Obviously I was too optimistic in that sense.
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You talk about recovering sovereignty. Do you think most people even recognizeDo I know that any sovereignty has been lost?
One of the reasons I wrote this book is to reach average news readers, not tech experts. Explaining that this is a problem that concerns people is a huge task. I’m curious to see how the impact of the Trump administration will provoke responses from European leaders, but also from others around the world who are simply going to think that we can’t afford this dependence on American tech companies. It is undesirable. Because, basically, we send our euros or pounds to Silicon Valley, and what do we get in return? More dependency. It’s going to be incredibly challenging, but doing nothing certainly won’t make it better.